In this episode, I'm talking kitchen therapy with Brandy Hickman. She is a Board Certified Health & Wellness Coach and cancer survivor. Listen to discover how to get past the hang-ups that keep you stuck and to rethink your relationship with your kitchen and health.
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Episode 7 Transcript
Brigitte Factor 0:13 Hello and welcome to the hungry for truth podcast. I'm your host, Brigitte Factor, the truth seeker, researcher, scientist, nutritionist, teacher in truth teller, and awakening is coming. Get ready for it.
Brigitte Factor 0:46 Welcome back to the hungry for truth podcast. I have the delight to talk to with one of my friends and colleagues today brandy Hickman brandy is a national board certified health and wellness coach. Living light with brandy lane is her inspired nutrition and health coaching business where she offers kitchen therapy programs for individuals and groups. She guides people in the kitchen with simplistic solutions by letting go of hangups and discovering a better relationship with their kitchen. She helps women discover if their plates are too full, or just filled with the things that don't nurture bring joy and inspire them and challenges women to have a different mindset and think differently about doing less and having more in the kitchen. She is also owner of to be well Integrative Health collaborative, a space for both people seeking natural preventative health care and health care providers wanting to collaborate with other professionals and get support for their businesses. And she is the board president of the Missouri nutritional Alliance, a nonprofit focused on building awareness and unifying holistic health and nutrition professionals in our state. The goal is to positively impact and foster cultural changes towards healthier lifestyles within the communities its members serve. Welcome, Brandy, it sounds like you're doing quite a bit for our community.
Brandy Hickman 2:13 Thank you, Brigitte. Well, we are friends and colleagues and I have really, like enjoy the last, you know, year I'm trying to think of when we actually it's probably been a little over a year, when we actually connected and started collaborating in both in both our professional lives in Springfield, Missouri, but also then, as you had mentioned, the Missouri nutrition Alliance, which is been just an amazing experience for me, to be out in the community, even through everything that we're all going through. It's just a way to make connections and and I've really enjoyed it. So thank you for having me on your podcast, I have to personally say that I've listened to all your episodes, and I'm a big fan, you know that I'm a I'm a big cheerleader for all science, nutrition, all that you're bringing to the community and and we are able to collaborate in so many ways because we complement each other beautifully. And that's what's fun to get to do in in our town, but also expanding that out. So I just listened to calming with Denise who is also a colleague of mine, and was at to be well, we are also collaborating on to be well now. So it's really exciting to see you be in this place of where you're meant to be like I can just I can just tell. So that's exciting. And thank you for having me. Yeah, well, thank you for that I have enjoyed our relationship over the past year or so to connecting through the Missouri nutrition Alliance, even though we knew of each other beforehand, but we didn't actually ever meet.
Brigitte Factor 3:59 And it's just been a joy to collaborate with you as well. I've learned a lot from you, too. And I love your presence and your creativity in the kitchen and in that joy that you bring to people. And so I wanted to explore that today and share that with others today. But first, I think your story is really powerful in how you got into health coaching. So would you mind sharing a little bit about that?
Brandy Hickman 4:27 Yes. I at the age of 29 I was diagnosed with early stage colon cancer. And that's not as much of my story but it is part of my story because it led me to do this part, which is the path that I'm supposed to do like I'm I'm clear every day that I'm walking, what I need to be walking and what I need to be sharing, and I had the opportunity to be at the Mayo Clinic for a month working in some areas that were new in the world of healthcare, and I kind of learned about the integrated part of healthcare and how how all of that worked. But I came home and you know, I met with lots of providers, dieticians, nutritionists, counselors, physical therapist, gastro, you know, the whole, the whole gamut. And I came home. And I was fairly healthy, I taught exercise and physiology. And I, I just did not know how to implement some of these things into my kitchen, you know, specifically, fiber was a big topic for me in in helping to become healthier. And I was 30. And I was navigating, and I was just overwhelmed with all the nutritional pieces of information. So I slowly started learning, you know, but we can know things, but not be sure how to implement them in the kitchen for a variety of reasons.
Brandy Hickman 6:03 So you spoke of letting go and getting rid of hang ups. And I specifically do that in the kitchen, because I had so many of my own hang ups, you know, so they can look like they can look like not having competence, and not knowing the information. So if we're, if we're looking at how much fiber should we should eat? What what foods have, how much fiber? And how can I get that into my diet? How if I'm busy, how to navigate kind of that buisiness, and how to show up in my kitchen differently. We can just not like to cook. And so that's our mindset. So shifting that mindset would be important. Maybe getting criticized by children or a spouse for what you're trying to do. Especially if you're trying to make big changes. You know, there's so there's a barrage of things that we have hang ups about, we all have hang ups, I'm sure you have a few hang ups yourself, we've had these discussions. So do I and I still have hang ups, like the process of getting rid of all of those hang ups. You know, it's an ebb and flow. And so there are times in my life that I feel like, I'm doing well. And my hang ups are doing pretty good. And then there's other times that for what other you know, there's lots of reasons that I can show up. But that piece of it will put me into a space of and something that I've learned about myself is when I'm struggling, I kind of have that rebellion sense. And so I want to push back on to what things are, should be good for me. And I think a lot of people can relate to that, don't you?
Brigitte Factor 7:44 Yeah, yeah, I get, I have that to where I don't like being told what to do. kind of thing. But, you know, I need to know why I need to be able to tap into my internal motivations of why this is important for me. Some people, you know, have different personality motivations. With that, as well. You know, you mentioned it being at a place was having trouble implementing this stuff that you are learning to help you through this time of recovering from colon cancer, what were some things that help you start to implement those pieces of knowledge.
Brandy Hickman 8:31 So that's where I learned that I really needed someone to walk with me on this journey. And that's why coaching became so important to me, as a patient, and now as a coach, but our colleague was one of my first coaches. And, and that's where I really began to understand that we have to reach out for support when we need it. And that can look like many different things for people, you know, it can look like a coach, it can look like a friend, it can look like a counselor. So there's lots of lots of ways that we can do that. And for me, it was specifically walking through and giving me confidence. And it's kind of I always use the term it's kind of like propping you up a little bit. And the other piece to it was and which can be a hang up is kind of the loneliness feeling of it. So I think that many women can really understand it, and men too. I mostly work with women understand that really, because of our culture, and the buisiness and where we stand. There's a lot of loneliness in the kitchen. And and so it can feel that overwhelming that you know, having to come home and make dinner and come up with the meals and it just feels taxing and helping people start to shift that mindset, to more light is, is one of the big goals that I needed. And then that helped me. So I realized very quickly, and this wasn't a one and done deal. This was over lots of years. And so that quick fix that sometimes our culture wants us to have, it's not sustainable. So we have to have the non judgement about ourselves and how we're going through this process. But understand that it's a continual process, like it's not done. And that was probably life saving for me. And, and when I learned how to get support, and specifically for me in that coaching, because I had learned to get support in other areas, I also, at the same time was doing yoga, so helping doing some physical therapy, I also was getting counseling. And so I, you know, there was a combination of things that I learned that we are not alone, and that we really, truly need.
Brandy Hickman 11:05 Community is probably the number one thing that we can do for our house. And probably the reason that we You and I both became involved with the Missouri Nutrition Alliance, is because that is community and we get to reach out to community we are community with ourselves. And then we get to reach out to community to help people heal, which is, which is we need that more now than ever, in our in our country. We need, we need to heal and we need to show up in light. So that's, that's really my story. And my story continues, you know, so it continues and what I get to learn, and one of the things that I said, I always wanted to have a job that and I don't consider this a job, although it's work is that I get to practice what I'm doing. So I can teach others. And so, you know, the food that I that I the simplicity that I learned in the kitchen, that is my science experiment, I'll speak to you as a scientist, you know, that is my constant science experiment, how not just how to make food, but it's really how to do it in a simpler way. So every day, if I could wake up and figure a new way to do something, to help my make my life easier. That's the mindset, that mindset mindset shift that I want to help guide people into doing is that shift?
Brigitte Factor 12:37 Yeah, yeah, that sounds great. There was a lot that you said there that I wanted to go back to one of the things that I truly believe in to his community, that that we need to reach out for help when we need it, and not to be ashamed or afraid of reaching out for help. And as you are going through your healing moments, which you're still doing, you reached out to several people, you had different types of practitioners that you are working with, because you needed that at that time. And I think that's really important and another reason why I love the Missouri nutrition Alliance, because we as practitioners also need a community to and to rely on each other and support each other instead of viewing each other as competitors, we are viewing each other as partners on the same journey trying to accomplish the same goals for our clients and our community. And I love that piece about it. For someone who is on the fence, and a lot of women sometimes find themselves in this place where they're not making themselves a priority, or they need to take that step to do that, and maybe they feel a little selfish about it. But can you speak to that? Can you speak to the importance of making that first step towards self care?
Brandy Hickman 14:12 Yeah, so I self care in the kitchen, which is, you know, I consider the kitchen, the heart of the home, there's so much that there's so much to unpack in the kitchen. If we think about it as a family or personally for ourselves, you know, everybody ends up in the kitchen. But you know, self care tends to fall last or close to last many times in women's lives, or unfortunately all the time for for many women. I think that's a cultural thing. I think that that's something that we've come up to that's the story that we have heard and tell ourselves sometimes now, you know, and so that comes back to what does self care look like, you know, confidence in the kitchen, you know, finding resources to build confidence to build resiliency, loneliness in the kitchen, you know, to so taking care of ourselves and figuring out ways to ask for support, so we don't feel lonely in the kitchen. And that can look like a lot of different having family help us reaching out to a community. To be part of it, when we talk about food and recipes and nutrition and shame and guilt, related to the choices that we make for ourselves, and or our family plays a part in how we're caring for our minds. being criticized for what we're doing in the kitchen can definitely play a part in how we're doing self care, and just the overwhelm. And so when I think about guiding women in the kitchen, I guide women through a process, and one of those processes to teach them that self care is the most important thing that we can do for ourselves. And I like to do this, through the eyes, to help them see it through the eyes of others. So their spouse, their significant other, you know, children, you know, and even friends, looking at it through their eyes, and when women are taking care of themselves, it empowers others to do the same thing. You know, so when we can look at it, like, it's the most important job that we could do for our kids, it's the most important job that we can do for our friends and family members, is to show up for ourselves, because it will teach others when you know, when I have a family that comes to me. Normally, it's the it's the woman in the house. If if that's, you know, that's that's usually how it happens. And they're starting to talk about how we need to fix. so and so and, and, you know, I need to do this for my kids, and I need to do this. And always my answer is do it for yourself, the rest will come, you know, if you can do it for yourself, the rest will come and living life the name of my business really, truly comes from that, when we can live from a place of light, and positivity. And love, we can empower people to do the same. So that's where I see self care, I look at it a little a little differently. And, and but I think it helps women to see it in a different light and not to see it, as you mentioned, as selfishness and you know, helping women to process and discover where their hang ups are, you know where their inner strengths are, and their values are. And so we can identify them. And we can enhance that. Looking at the you know, when I work with a client, we always every session, I always remind them of what is new and good. You know, so that reminder that and I think you and Denise kind of hit on this, but what is going well, what has worked in the past, and I specifically am talking about the kitchen, and what I love to do to help them start to self care, to help them show them cuz I'm doing it with them is I love to be in their kitchen. because number one, I see where the hang ups are.
Brandy Hickman 18:28 And number two, I cook with them, you know, so it's a combination of figuring out what their hang ups are and how to get through them help brainstorm ideas on how to navigate that. So whether it's you talking about a chronic illness and working through nutrition or a specific thing, or a physician, or a naturopath, you know, which is where I get my referrals. It is about me helping to implement that, like let's take this, whether it's a chronic issue, you know, it's a health issue, or it's just that I want to show up differently. You know, it can be there's a spectrum there, you know, so there, it's, you know, someone dealing with cancer, or after going through treatments of cancer and really motivated to do something different, or just simply needing to show up differently for themselves. And that's where I see, you know, it's simplistic solutions by letting go, you know, have hangups and discovering that better relationship with their kitchen, but really with herself.
Brigitte Factor 19:35 That's so beautifully said and I love the idea of kitchen therapy and I want to come back to that idea in just a second. But first I wanted to echo what you were saying about when we make ourselves a priority and do the work for us. It is reflected in our family and our the people that are around that around us and I've seen that personally and myself with the work that I've had to do with my mental health, as well, and just focusing on me, and getting myself in the right place has, I've seen benefits of that reflected in my relationships with my husband and with my kids. So I, I can understand that. And I see that as being a very powerful tool, you know, many women don't want to put their family first, you know, we love our kids in our family so much, we want to put them first, but really, to have them have that better path, we have to work on our path and ourselves, for sure. And I love that you, you meet your clients in the kitchen, where where it, you know, this, where this path starts, for many people is getting back into the kitchen and learning those tools that they need to feed themselves with nourishing food, as well as mindsets. So touch on your kitchen therapy, tell us more about that.
Brandy Hickman 21:05 So those are my individual programs and group programs. So just like I mentioned, I go into people's kitchens, I do a discovery session, either virtually, or in person, I do discovery sessions there. And so I typically work with someone for three or six months, and we set goals and we set our intentions, we really talk about accountability. So you had spoken of in the very beginning, we all have a different way of showing up, you know, so me. So for example, meal plans, you know, what I do for meal plans, is going to be really different from what you experienced. So it's really helping someone discover what's going to be for them. And then I also have my kitchen therapy memberships. Both I'm my goal is really to help someone have a notebook that is a resource and a guide for them, of go to meals of what their pantry can look like how to store food, how to make you know how to make vegetables in different ways, but really taking some go to meals that they already have and maybe making them healthier? How can they plan their meals to make it the most simplified for them that we can and that's really the overall discovery that we do in in their in their kitchen in their home. And the kitchen, their membership is just online. So I'm taking all that information. And I'm so excited that I'm just launching my website and launching my kitchen therapy membership. Where I have some already some great members. And it's going to be all in one place where people can access it on my website, which is really exciting. And their topics like right now we're going through just getting through with holidays and thinking about, you know what the new year brings? And so, setting intentions. What that looks like setting goals, what does that look like? How can we hold ourselves accountable? Where do we need support to help us with accountability? What does that look like personally for us, and then we'll be hitting different different topics. So sugar, you know, what is our kitchen look like with sugar and cooking more vegetables, ideas for breakfast. And so when I bring the information to my website, there's always a read portion of that topic, there's always a practice portion of that topic. And there's always an eat portion of that topic, which is videos of me preparing food, or recipes that they can look at and prepare. But really, it's overall it's about inspiring, you know, inspiring someone, walking with them, simplifying, having some structure that's going to work for them that allows us to have freedom. And it's about community, whether I'm in their kitchen, or it's online. It's all about having community.
Brandy Hickman 24:14 And I'll be launching a membership seasonal box that will go with a membership that I'm super excited to launch in the in this first first part of the year, which will be super exciting. And that will be because I have because my science experiment that I'm doing that I spoke of is all about simplifying. So what are tools? What are tips, brainstorming with people and how can we do this? And that makes me feel it fills me up because I'm in community doing this and it lights me up because I get to come up with. I mean, that's what I like to investigate. What's the best way to figure this out. So it's simplified so I'm not overwhelmed and I don't have to think about what's for dinner. So that's my kitchen therapy. Oh, Overall, that's what I that that's what I love to do. The kitchen therapy will just be ongoing, that's online, the membership. And then the people that I see, live or virtual is an individual, so we just do a deeper dive specifically in their kitchen.
Brigitte Factor 25:17 Yeah, that sounds great. I have loved watching you create this, you know, you used to offer them in your home, these kitchen therapy sessions. And it was fun to have that group of people there, but because of the challenges of this year, you've taken that same creativity, and you've transitioned it into an online format, which is accessible to more people, especially now. And I love the community piece of it too, because in community is where you can share these ideas, and, and share the things that you're going through and get feedback from other people. That helps you, you know, be more creative as well. And I'm super excited about this toolbox that you created, or are coming up with that sounds really fun, as well. But coming back to the theme of a new year and a new membership, and setting intentions, what is your intention for 2021 with your kitchen therapy?
Brandy Hickman 26:21 So I have content from many years past. And so my intention is to really have grow my kitchen therapy membership. So getting that content out to my members, and my community and sharing it with the greater good. So that is one of my intention is growing kitchen therapy, I would like to take it to the community, with Missouri Nutrition Alliance for people that need it in our community that maybe don't have the resources. So also taking a version of that and helping our community with it. So that's my want to give back and, and to share. And I still want to be in community in my town, which is Springfield, Missouri. So it's about the expansion. But it's also about staying close and staying connected and still having classes that I get to teach. And that's overall that's my intention is just to take all this content. And always, I'm always going to be experimenting. So that's just part of my joy. And it fills me up completely so and that's part of the job. And I learn as much from others that I get to teach, you know, somebody has done something in a new way, or lights me up in a new way or gives me an idea. And that that's why it's not a job. It's It's my life's work, but it's not it doesn't feel like work.
Brigitte Factor 27:51 Yeah, you can definitely sense your passion and enthusiasm for this type of work. And when you bring that to what you do, it just makes it more fun and more attractive for people to to participate in. And it's infectious. That enthusiasm is infectious. And I love that. So how can people learn more about the kitchen therapy that you do?
Brandy Hickman 28:15 Well, I will give my website which is simple. It's www.brandyhickman.com and on there is my kitchen therapy. So they will be able to learn more about it. And I will offer on your podcast, one free month. And so they can try it out if they want but they can look at my recipes, and my blogs and learn a little bit about me on my website. It's real simple. But just navigating through that and seeing what I'm about and and what I love. So that would be where they can find me. That sounds great. And I will be sure to put that link in the show notes for references for those that are listening.
Brigitte Factor 29:03 I want to come back to this idea of working with clients and being in their kitchen and ask you if you have an inspirational story of someone that you've worked with that has really inspired you.
Brandy Hickman 29:22 Yeah, I'm thinking I'm thinking of two for different reasons. But I'm thinking about someone who I actually just started working with. And she is amazing. We've set our intentions and our goals and really did a discovery session so went through her entire kitchen and her spices were something that she really, really was struggling with that they were all over the kitchen and she had she knew she had doubles and some expired and all of that. So just going to her and this is this is really fun. We cook together. And so we made a dish together. And in that dish, we were doing lots of different vegetables. And she was learning for her family that she could make it, she could tweak it and make it a little bit different in two pots, and really make everybody happy, but not making two dishes, just thinking two versions of the same dish. So that was like simplifying. And then she had some Brussel, sprouts, stems, and she had cooked them in the instant pot. So I learned from her in this this case, so we decided to get it out and see what we could do with it. And if we could incorporate, because it had lots of fiber in it, you know, that piece of it. But we didn't know how much was going to be to fiber is to put in the soup. And I'm like, well, I've never done this before, let's try it out. So we learn from the stocks of the brussel sprouts, because she got a whole big stem. So there was a big, there was a big stock of it, you could actually part of a Brussel sprout that has been cooked in an instant pot was really soft. And there was parts of it, we didn't want to put in there. But we scooped out a bunch and got a bunch of just really great part of the vegetable that's so good for us. And it was so good. It tasted so good. We couldn't use the whole piece. But we were just learning and discovering and trying. And that was really fun. And it was just that inspiration and and I left her with the goal of you know, I wasn't going to come in and do her spices for her. I'm not an organizer. You know, I am a coach. And so her goal was she had to pull all of her spices out. And she made this goal for herself. And she she had to I wish I could bring up how she how she communicated it.
Brandy Hickman 31:46 Because it was hilarious. She texted me with all these pictures. But the goal was for her to I said to marry because I come from food industry. So marry means that you're putting together right, and get rid of expired. And see how she wanted to organize her spices, you know, and I gave her some suggestions. And we can look at blogs, let's be honest. And they can give us these beautiful, like all the same size with pretty labels all lined up together. But let's let's be realistic, that's not really going to happen in most of our kitchens. Like it's not like, right. It's the system that we set up that will work, you know, so do we want to set it up with cuisines? Do we want to set it up? You know, I like to do mine seasonally. So I so we brainstormed on, on how she might look at doing it. And I just we just got some ideas flowing. The next thing I know, four or five days later, after I left before I came back, because I see clients once every two weeks, she had organized everything and came up with a system before I even came back to see her. And she said I'm so motivated. And she said something about you know, these people got married and and then I these people went up to spice heaven. And this you know, so she she kind of made this, this really kind of funny joke she goes but I'm so inspired. Thank you, thank you, thank you so much. And all I'm doing is giving that coaching piece that inspiration that accountability piece to help somebody move from point A to maybe point C or point A to you know, our goal is just to keep moving through. But that really made a very clear what she did and the one other one other person that I think and she just she just a comment that she made. She said not only am I learning to have a better relationship with food, but I'm changing other things about myself as we talk through past experiences, and what might have led to particular behaviors. And that's where I find out some hang ups because we tell ourselves stories, our whole lives from what we tell ourselves what we hear from other people and they stick with us and for some reason that kitchen is a is a common ground for a lot of those stories to show up. And food is a common way because we're we gather with with our family members with food. And and so that was that just reminded me what I'm doing, like the important work that that that I'm doing and others in this industry are doing. So that would be the the kind of explaining that piece.
Brigitte Factor 34:43 Yeah, yeah. So you said a couple of things I wanted to touch on there. One, first of all, is when you start to make a change, like when you make a decision just to do one thing. That can set you in a forward momentum. And the next thing you know, you've organized your whole kitchen. You know, right. Yeah. And, and so that's the ice that is, you know, a value and having a coach in your corner is helping you, let's start with this one thing and see what happens. And I and I love that you're getting inspiration from your clients and doing these different things with the brussel sprouts stalk, who knew you could even use that, like I didn't. Like, that's, that's so neat to me to work to learn those things, too. And I myself, find, you know, in our family, no, you can't make one dish that pleases everybody, you've got to try to do something a little different, I like the idea of just taking one dish and making it slightly different, or a portion of it slightly different. So that way you can at least get everybody fed. That is a challenge for a lot of people that have different tastes, different personalities, like different things, as well. So that, you know, that's another really great tip that people can latch on to. And the end, the other piece of it is as you work with somebody and you're getting feedback from them, like you're working with a coach or getting feedback from them, you yourself start to have more awareness of what's going on with you, that these things can come up in. And if you're in a compassionate environment or a loving, supportive environment, you feel safe to bring these things up and address them. So you can move forward. And that's another thing I love about the the coaching piece and having that support, as well. So I think that that's all really wonderful. If somebody would like to get ahold of you now that you're you can do these, this coaching virtually these discovery sessions, virtually How do they do that?
Brandy Hickman 36:57 So on my homepage of my website is, I have a little video that talks about my discovery session that they can just schedule right there. And what for a free discovery session. I call it a kitchen therapy discovery session. And it typically takes about 45 minutes, but they can schedule right on the website.
Brigitte Factor 37:20 Okay, that sounds great. And we'll make I'll make sure to put a link in the show notes as well. So this has been a really fun conversation. And I've learned a few things in this as well. And I hope that our listeners have and have enjoyed this. Do you have any last thoughts or comments that you would like to share?
Brandy Hickman 37:42 Well, thank you for having me on your podcast, because I think truth is so important. And I think the last thing that I want to leave in that in that mindset is that we really do have to be truthful about our health, and about the information that we receive and how we go about that. So I think the work that you're doing with that is greatly, greatly important to our culture, I think that that process, that quick fix, you know, we have a lot of information coming at us. And at this time, more than ever, we need, we need honesty and truth and with ourselves, but also with with the information that we're gathering. So thank you for that. And thank you for having me on as a guest because I obviously passionate is one way that my family would describe me and living. I live what I what I talk about. So I live I try to live in light every day and I I try to wake up with that passion. It doesn't mean I don't have bad days, but it does mean that I try to live in a light way. So thank you.
Brigitte Factor 39:04 Yes, and I can attest to that, that you you live this, you breathe this, it radiates from you, your passion, your your love for this type of work your light energy. So and I thank you for sharing that with me. It's it's benefited me for sure. And it's helped me through this time as well. So and I love that, you know this year has been or this past year has been awakening for many of us to you know come to ourselves and look in the mirror and have that self reflection and to do so in an honest and compassionate way. And that's why I have decided to do this podcast is because we're looking for that we are hungry for truth. And there's a lot of misinformation and distortion out there. With what we tell ourselves. So that's I love that I get to bring this out into the world at this time now. So again, thank you for being on the show. And again if you want to connect with brandy, you can visit her website at brandyhickman dot com and I will put that link in the show notes. You can check out her kitchen therapy as well. You can also connect with us on Instagram at living living light with brandy lane right is that the Instagram?
Brandy Hickman 40:33 Yeah, I think so.
Brigitte Factor 40:34 And then I'm I am at Brigitte Factor and then our podcast my podcast is at hungry for truth. And I'll put all of those links in the show notes as well. And if you have enjoyed this episode, I ask that you leave a review and let us know every time you leave a review that helps boost the podcast and share this information with more people. And I thank you for listening and until next time, Grace and peace to you.